Seasons Leadership Podcast
Join Debbie Collard and Susan Ireland, co-hosts and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception. On the Seasons Leadership Podcast, we will bring you practical, actionable advice you can apply now to improve your leadership - and life. Join us on Wednesdays throughout the seasons.
Selected by Feedspot as one of the Top 15 Positive Leadership Podcasts on the web.
Seasons Leadership Podcast
Leadership is a path to pursue a better version of you with Frances Chang
Join us as we talk to Frances Chang, chief operating officer at Andovar, a language services company. Frances opens up about the core values that keep her grounded, the power of searching for your passions and the significance of building a robust support network. Discover how leadership is not just about managing others but is a journey of self-improvement and fostering genuine connections.
Show Notes:
(1:30) Frances shares her background, including being an alum of the Seasons Leadership Program and a current student of our new Elemental Leadership Course. She talks about her multinational experience and her passion for languages.
(11:33) We discuss the higher stakes of making a mistake when your level at work increases. Frances shares how she helps alleviate pressure and stress by finding a support network at work. We share advice on how to keep connections strong.
(15:27) Frances shares her belief that leaders should work to find something they like but that you don’t need to have a passion to be successful, rather it is about the journey of finding new things and possibly something that you like through that journey.
(21:30) Frances talks about one of her favorite books by Adam Grant. Unlearning what you already know – we share stories about this realization for each of us and how being an excellent leader requires humility and the ability to listen to diverse perspectives.
(25:12) Actionable advice: Frances shares the importance of having a foundation to ground you and the humility to seek advice from trusted allies at work.
(31:45) We end the discussion acknowledging the importance of knowing who you are and how you shouldn’t separate your work self from your other self. Frances encourages listeners to truly show up as who you are and that who you are is how you lead.
About Frances: Frances currently holds the title of Chief Operating Officer at Andovar, a leading language service provider, where she combines her passion for cultures and peoples with over a decade of operational experience across continents and industries. As a fervent linguist herself, she speaks four languages and is currently picking up a fifth one (Thai). Originally from Taiwan, Frances now resides in Bangkok with her husband and their rescue pup, Junior. She is an alum of the Seasons Leadership Program.
Join Debbie Collard and Susan Ireland, certified coaches and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception on Wednesdays on the Seasons Leadership Podcast. (Selected by Feedspot as one of the Top 15 Positive Leadership Podcasts on the web!)
And now you can join our community of values-based leaders on Seasons Leadership Patreon at Patreon.com/seasonsleadership. At our gold-level, unlock our exclusive Lessons in Leadership Column from our Resident Seasoned Leader David Spong, a lifetime member of the Board of the Malcom Baldrige Foundation and our Leadership Elements Series.
Welcome everybody to the Seasons Leadership Podcast, where we are committed to leaders everywhere, at all levels, who want to make progress on their leadership journey. We will bring you actionable advice to improve your leadership and life today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us At Seasons Leadership. We share a vision to make excellent leadership the worldwide standard. Learn more at seasonsleaderseadershipcom. Welcome everybody, and today we have a very special guest, frances Chang. Frances, welcome. Hello hello, nice to be here.
Speaker 3:Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2:Yes, and Frances, you are very special to us because you were in one of the very first cohorts for Seasons Leadership.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I remember Good times. Yes, it is that was what three years ago, I think it was Three or four years ago.
Speaker 2:I think it might have been four years ago.
Speaker 3:Wow, 2020 or 2021. I can't remember, right.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, it kind of crossed there, I think, a little bit Okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, time flies, right Time flies, but I don't really feel like it's been so long because you know what we talked about back then. It's still applicable at my work every single day, so I always refer to what I learned from the cohort.
Speaker 2:I love to hear that. Well again, you are. You are even, you know, such a good supporter and I'm so glad that the material works for you because you are also in our elemental leadership course.
Speaker 3:Yes, so I'm also quite happy with the new format because it's more flexible, right? So I know. Back then, because of the time zone, I had to wake up at like 3 am every quarter but like two days every quarter and but now I can just you know, learn it at my own pace, so it's awesome that was real dedication to learning about leadership.
Speaker 1:To have to wake up at 3am and get on a video call.
Speaker 3:No kidding, you know, you know what. What really drove that decision is because I felt the need at that time, I think. I think that's often the best motivation or reason for people to find resources right, because they are in need of something.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, and reaching out for it. We were so grateful to have you in the program then and now. Thank, you. It means a lot to us.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, tell us more about you. What are you doing? How did you get there? Who is Frances Chang?
Speaker 3:So yeah, just really briefly, I'm originally from Taiwan, although I left Taiwan, I think, 17 years ago, so I was studying and working in Europe and the US, and now I'm based based in Bangkok, thailand, with my husband and a rescue pup. I right now at work, I oversee the operation of a, of a company we, we, we are the language service provider. We do everything language related, right from translation, localization, interpretation, right. Even the latest service offering includes data collection as well, to trend the large language model, for example. So yeah, basically we would do anything and everything that language related.
Speaker 1:Frances. I'm curious what is localization with regards to language?
Speaker 3:Localization is basically localizing content right. So, for example, if you are a multinational corporation and you have, say, internal training material, online training courses that you want to give it give to your workers in brazil, give your work, give the training material to people in china, for example and then you need to localize those training courses right. So we do that end-to-end for you, so we will translate those and then we will do the digital integration back to the whole training package for you so that your staff in China, for example, can just watch it and even listen to it in Chinese.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. That's really helpful, yeah.
Speaker 3:or if you have a website, right, let's say you're an e-commerce website in the US and then you want to get into a Japanese market which is very, very sensitive to whatever the language on the interface that they have, whatever the language on the interface that they have then localizing your website into Japanese will probably increase a lot of your sales or increase a lot of the traffic. Right? So we will localize your website into Japanese as well, and then we will also have the experts or linguists that will go through the material and pick out something that's not culturally acceptable or appropriate for the local market during the whole localization process.
Speaker 1:Wow that's amazing, it is amazing.
Speaker 2:Frances. What is your position in the company?
Speaker 3:Right now I'm the chief operating officer Wow, so basically overseeing the operation, yeah, about everything that's a huge job.
Speaker 2:That's, that's a huge job that's, yes, it's.
Speaker 3:It can be overwhelming a lot of times actually, yeah, but I passion, right, like I'm really passionate about languages and I'm very passionate about people, about, you know, making connection to them every day. We have staff in multiple countries of different nationalities. I think last time I counted it was like 26 nationalities or something wow, I love you know yeah, get you know, really get to know them and then hear their stories.
Speaker 3:It's always very fascinating to me and I think that's that's one of the advantages of being a, for example, in my position, right, because I get to have those connections. If, if I'm a local, like a very junior staff, I might not have the exposure to talk to these many people because they are just simply not my stakeholders.
Speaker 1:So you're very passionate about languages. What do you think drove that? Were you always passionate from as young as you can remember, or did something spark that passion in you?
Speaker 3:I think it's a little bit of my personality as well, and I guess I didn't really know that until I did the program, like three or four years ago. I know that I'm always very passionate about languages. Since I was very young, I like to learn English.
Speaker 3:I I studied Russian in college and then later I learned Polish as well and but I I didn't quite understand what drove that Right. But then we did the, we did the program, and then I remember the first. The first thing was about the, the appearance. That's super fun as well. But then we got into the topic of, you know, identifying your core values, and that's when I realized, oh my god, I love adventures. That's well, I think that's one of my top three or something like I put down adventure, connection and faith. And then, yeah, I guess a part of me is just constantly, you know, seeking something new, seeking something exciting, something different. So I guess that's related to why I'm so interested in in foreign languages, because, like Susan said, it opens different doors. I feel like people who speak different languages. Their brains are wired completely differently as well. So that's always very cool to read, for example, the literature in their native languages.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh Frances, how many languages do you speak? Read that kind of thing? What are they? What are they?
Speaker 3:uh, chinese is my native languages language, and then I speak English. Obviously, uh, russian and Polish what I'm picking up?
Speaker 2:Thai. I was gonna say which language you, you kind of speak I kind of speak thai.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I can. I can, you know, like get around and order food and stuff. It's just totally fine, but I can't really read and write yet. It's such a difficult language. They all look the same to me. The alphabet, yeah.
Speaker 1:But now that I'm here I definitely have a lot of you know, opportunity to really pick that up yeah, there's no better way for picking up languages than to immerse yourself in the, in that language and in that culture. At least, that's been my experience. Um, necessity, right, you? You, as you said, when you need something, you need to know the language to go for it to, so you just dive in and do it.
Speaker 3:Yes, I I remember when I first moved here I I couldn't even get the taxi driver to take me where I want to go. Just just impossible. I mean, I would show them the map, but it's just, the barrier is so high that I decided to take at least three months Thai language course so at least I can speak right, at least I can, you know, tell them turn left or right and get food.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. Well, it makes it really, truly makes it an adventure when you are in a country where you don't speak the language there and you're trying to get around and do things, and it's, I imagine. I've never climbed a mountain, so I'm going to use this analogy maybe not the greatest analogy to use, but I imagine the same kind of things your heart rate starts pumping even more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're, you're like oh, I can figure this out, let's figure it, let's figure out how we have to solve this. And you know, in challenge like that is much like what leadership can be right, especially when you're in a position as important as the position you're in, if you are faced with a new challenge. I imagine that that passion for adventures and new challenges serves you well in a position like that Doesn't mean I don't panic, though. Oh no, I would panic too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and and I think I guess many people love challenges as well, you know they love adventures but then I feel like when you're at a certain level, the the tolerance for making mistakes is actually smaller, like lower right, because right now, if I make a mistake, the impact is much bigger than than, you know, when I was a junior staff. So that pressure would naturally kind of cause a lot of fear and a lot of stress. And so I feel like, for leaders, having the right mindset and also find your own support network is very, very important. Otherwise, no matter how adventurous you are, you won't, you just cannot survive. It's the challenges are constant, and then changes are constant, and then if you are so afraid of making decisions, thinking about a million things all the time, um yeah, you just cannot move forward. So I feel like to to to really prop, propel a leader to survive this kind of journey. There are things that you have to do. There are things, there are support that you have to find. You have to also prep yourself internally as well.
Speaker 1:Just like for any adventure, right, you have to prep yourself, you have to know who your support people are, you have to get psyched up for it, and then dive in, for example, I have you guys. Well, we're happy to be your support group.
Speaker 2:No kidding, no kidding. Well, and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm just reflecting on what you're saying, because as you go up in position, you also have more people relying on you, and one of your values is connection. Yes, how do you, how do you keep the connection strong as you have taken more responsibility on?
Speaker 3:um, obviously I won't be able to spend equal amount of time with everyone, right, because you know, just impossible. I only have also 24 hours a day, um, but I? But what I really try to do is to, um, make it a habit, right? Let's say, every two weeks I would schedule a call connecting with one colleague, even though she's not even, you know, in my direct reporting line, but I would, I know she's, she has a lot of interesting stories and we are work constantly, you know, cross paths. So I want to make it regular to you know, really connect with her, even if it's just 30 minutes, right, because I don't, I feel like if you don't really put it on the calendar, it will just fade, it's true and and also, again, I feel like you, you have to kind of, and I feel like you have to kind of feel the need.
Speaker 3:It always goes back to the same thing, right? You are genuinely curious about what other people are doing. Every work, meeting, conference, online calls like this we will chit, chat, right. We will, you know, talk about what's happening in each other's lives. So we try to grab that opportunity to really connect.
Speaker 1:Well, Frances, as you know, we have a vision to make excellent leadership the worldwide standard, and you've been helping us with that vision, helping us realize it by participating in our program. What way would you say that you contribute to leadership excellence?
Speaker 3:I guess I can contribute because in a way that I bring different perspectives, because we want diversity basically in leadership's world as well, and it's not only that, uh, we can learn from different people. It's the reality. You are naturally gonna have very different team members. You're not going to have just one single personality on your team, right you? You would. You would naturally face the need that you have to deal with diversity so I think it's like both ways.
Speaker 3:It kind of preps you for your, your real team, in real life, but also it helps you to learn different perspective, get different information and hear how they would solve the problems, right.
Speaker 3:So, for example, I learned so much from my own team that, yeah, if you talk about hierarchy, yes, they report to me, but every single day I'm, so you know, walled by them, like they always have exciting ideas I've never thought of. It can be because their upbringing can be, because their upbringing can be because their culture I don't know, but it's just nonstop learning which is really really exciting. So diversity is really really important for me and I think I can contribute in a way that I have quite you know, interesting, you know, life story so far. I've been traveling around the world for the past 20 years, and different industries as well, like, at first I was in manufacturing, can you imagine, and now I'm in language service, right, yeah, so I think I can chime in whenever I feel, huh, this situation, maybe I can you know, borrow a part of my experience and then apply here Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's so cool, too, that you started in manufacturing but you gravitated towards something you're passionate about, which is languages. That is such a success story already that you got to go to something. Many people, I think, work in jobs for lots of different reasons, but oftentimes it's just that it's a job or work just to make enough money to do what they want to do. But when you can do what you've done, which is move into the field that you're passionate about, then you get that congruence and everything's more aligned and just works better.
Speaker 3:I'm really happy that you mentioned that a lot of people probably do not have a very specific thing that they are super passionate about, and I think that is fine. That is totally, totally okay, because I feel like we are asking people, we're demanding from people a lot like you need to find your passion right. You need to do something. Your passion, you know, follow your heart. It's not easy, many people just do not have that, but that's okay. It's not easy, many people just do not have that, but that's okay. What I want to say is that, as soon as you keep moving, try to find something that you like.
Speaker 3:It's that process that matters, right? So, for example, I recently I don't know why, but out of nowhere, I'm starting to be I started to feel really, really interested in interior design. Right, I'm starting to be. I started to to feel really, really interested in in interior design right, I'm, I'm, I'm never trend in the area, I just like to look at beautiful houses, and. But then, throughout that process, throughout that research and everything, I even registered for an online program as well. Just, you know, as a hobby. It might not bring me anything monetary right at the end, but throughout the process I got to see so many beautiful, beautiful designs, right, it really really opens up my mind.
Speaker 3:And yeah, it's, it's okay that you don't. You haven't found something yet. And also, even when you find it right, that say, okay, language, awesome, I love doing it, I love my industry, I mean. But again, you can be really bogged down by the load of work and then you lose your interest, right, you lose your passion. So I think that that's also very possible. So, yeah, at the end of the day, if you can just keep moving, you keep connecting with, connecting with new people, new information, and you grow in a very unexpected way, I would say that's, that's great.
Speaker 2:I love that because you know, oftentimes people will talk to us and that is it, like I don't have a passion. Is there something wrong with me?
Speaker 3:no, not at all right.
Speaker 2:Right, we put a little bit, sometimes too much emphasis on that and but yeah, the journey will find, you know, what is right for you, and it may be, you know, it may be a quieter kind of a interest. It doesn't have to be loud passion.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah yeah, you can find comfort from your newfound hobby, right when you are finding it, when you're looking at things, or you can be, um, uh, kind of stimulated, like, oh, maybe this is something I can get, really get into, you know, get serious, or you just meet very interesting people, right, so you never know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like being able to get something out of it regardless right yes.
Speaker 2:being open to be surprised yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think we talked about his book, right, adam Grant's book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which one?
Speaker 3:I think, rethink, oh, rethink, yes. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. And yeah, the idea is you need to constantly unlearn what you already know. Right, rethink what you already know, and I think that's really, really important.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what I do, and I think everybody does this, and I'm always like, oh, I did it again. The idea of when I think I know something, think I know something, it's like my mind shuts down almost to to actually maybe other possibilities or reality. So, because it's just the way my mind works, like, oh, I know something. And I remember I was at uh work back at Boeing and I was having a meeting with my team and they were presenting something and I said it's like the light went on for me and I said, wait a second, this is not what I thought. And my whole team said, finally you saw it. Finally I saw it. You know, finally we've been telling you this. And I said, wow, I said, okay, here's the deal.
Speaker 2:Because I was like, so sure I can't even remember what it was, but I was so sure it was something, probably a schedule, something. I was so sure I knew that I couldn't see reality and I said, okay, here's the deal, this is the rule we got to, knew that I couldn't see reality and I said, okay, here's the deal, this is a rule we got to make If Susan doesn't see something, you've got to hit her over the head with it until she sees it. Don't let her out of the room, because you know at least I'm aware of that you know that I do that. But that's the idea with rethink, right? If, yeah, you gotta unlearn what you think you've known, you know, because the world is just too complex it happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, it actually happens to me a lot and actually I think one in one occasion already, like this week. I was during the meeting. I was usually quite vocal, but now you have this cultural aspect comes into play. I'm in Thailand, I'm with my Thai staff and they are not confrontational. They just will not tell you that they you're probably wrong and they would yeah, they would. You know, write me an email afterwards or text me afterwards very emotionally that you don't understand this, like you, you misunderstood us, blah, blah, blah and yeah. So I had a conversation with that mesquite again as well. I said I know I'm usually the vocal one, but it doesn't mean, does not mean I'm right. Yeah, only because you're quiet doesn't mean you're wrong, but it's important that you tell me that you know something is wrong yeah yeah, I think it happens even more with um female team members and also Asian cultures in other ways.
Speaker 3:So that's, that's also another layer of complication, right.
Speaker 1:When it gets back to that diversity we're talking about, though, right, so there's, even if we think we know something, we're certain we know a certain thing, but we haven't been able to look at it through all those different lenses, all those different perspectives. What we know as a fact, as Susan said, may not be a fact at all, may be totally off base, but that's why we have to be open to being surprised, open to oh, maybe that's not the one way to say it or the one way to think about it, or the one way to solve it, right and that that diversity, all different types of diversity, gives us such richness as people and as leaders, because then we're, we've got such a broad spectrum instead of this, instead of this narrow, I know what it is focus.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what?
Speaker 2:I, I think we're talking about a really important excellent leadership tenant here, and that is to really understand our brains right. We make, we do shortcuts right, because just to get through our day. So this is how we know things. And I think as to be an excellent leader first needs to realize that that we do that, that that we do that and, second, to take a pause and allow people around you to give you input and make sure that you're getting a diverse set of input, um, and and do your best to listen, because yeah, listening is so, so important and so hard, because sometimes you're under pressure to get the performance out of people and you tend to just, you know, decide everything and control everything, and that's just.
Speaker 3:It's not sustainable. You might get very short term results, but when people don't feel like they're respected, then you just cannot win their hearts.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That is very sage advice. Speaking of advice, I'd like to shift gears just a little bit for us, and we always promise our listeners actionable advice when they tune into this podcast. So if you were to give a piece, even if it's something you've already talked about, as fine as well, but if you were to give a piece of advice that our listeners could take away and apply today to help make them help them on their leadership journey, what would that be?
Speaker 3:For me that really, really helped me a lot is to be comfortable with who I am. First of all, you need to know who you are and start to work on the core values that are really, really important and true to you, right, because there will always be very unexpected situation coming up like some problems that you never had before, or just some I don't know, any sort of you know, work, stress and everything something that you just absolutely cannot control. Um, having that foundation ready is so important because when I first got this uh, got this job five years ago five years I was part of the operational team. Of course it's not the same title, but I already started to manage a few people and at that time I really didn't really have a lot of experience. And at that time, what really really helped me is go back to the foundation how I want people to treat me right, all those very core questions that can guide us.
Speaker 3:Some people have their faith, for example. I have my faith, I'm a Christian and I would, you know, probably go back to some of the teachings, right, but it doesn't really matter, like, what religion you have, or if you don't really have a religion, that's okay, like if you have your core values, that has to be like something really, really foundational that can ground you. So it doesn't matter what situation you're in, you can always refer to those, right? So I think that's important to me and I also wrote down mindfulness have that humility to really be reflecting on what you did or what you said throughout the day and check in with your allies at work. If you you don't have, I highly recommend that you need to have your allies at work, right? I'm not talking about you know, having you know private group, that exclusive little group. No, you need to have your true friends at work and then you can seek advice. You're comfortable, you know listening to them when they tell you the truth, right, always checking with them. Hey, hey, I had this situation the other day. What do you think right? Is my response appropriate or is it not? What can I do right?
Speaker 3:Some people might think why do I have to give her advice? Right? What's the benefit for me? But I think if you truly have that relationship with someone, they are willing to help, because we are all in this together. You want to make things work right. You will naturally be really willing to give advice or give comments, right, even just comment, just observation, right. So, yeah, that's already two points. And and again, I mentioned earlier that you want to build your support network. It can be professional services, like coming to you guys or take a course or consult with your friends, right, consult with your families. And also, I think reading is so important because a lot of things that we're experiencing some other people already experienced that so you, suddenly, you this, this huge burden is dropped because you're no longer in the unknown. People already had this, they studied this, they researched this, they wrote about it. So even just a quick Google search sometimes got me out of the panic mode really quickly, Right. So I feel like knowledge really is the power.
Speaker 2:I was just, I really was just admiring the power behind you as a leader and as a person, and when you were talking about being grounded in your values, how important that was for you. You know, doing that really enhances your leadership presence and gravitas. You may not feel it because it's who you are, but that confidence and that grounding that you were talking about is really powerful.
Speaker 3:I remember you had a guest speaker three, four months ago, Alan Mulally, that's the correct way to say it. Yes, I was listening to. I didn't listen to the whole thing, but what caught my attention was that he said it's just you, there has been just you. There's no work you or, or private life you. It's impossible. And that was like such an eye-opening moment for me as well. See, like knowledge, it is so great because, yeah, we spend so much time at work. You work 8, 10, 12 hours. It's just you cannot separate.
Speaker 3:Whoever you are at work is is you, and if you deliberately try to separate two selves, you're gonna be so exhausted so you really need to decide like who you truly are and show up as who you are at work, and as part of life as well.
Speaker 1:We usually uh, say that, repeat that actually in our courses and we say who you are is how you lead, because you cannot separate the two. So you're going to show up, even if you think you're not, even if you think you're separating the two and hiding the way you are outside work, from work. You're not. People see it because it comes out of you. They can't help, but come out of you.
Speaker 3:So and that's just so exhausting, like why, why, why try?
Speaker 1:to be two different people. Yes, so, francis, is there anything else that you would like our listeners in the world to know about leadership, about excellent leadership, about you?
Speaker 3:I don't know what people that, what first comes to people's mind when, when the term leadership, leadership comes up, right, because I guess a lot of people have the impression that oh, this, you know the boss. But I want to say that it's it's so much more than managing people. It's about managing yourself as well. It really is a path to pursue a better version of you. I, I would say like I, for example, I learned so much from my team which I I wouldn't able be able to otherwise, right if I'm not in this position. So, um, yeah, have an open mind and don't be confined in a cookie cutter version of leader.
Speaker 3:Think broadly that how you can improve yourself first and then bring that true self to at work, to your family, to your friend circle, and make genuine, genuine connection Like, for example, even if I genuine, genuine connection. Like, for example, even if I, let's say, I leave tomorrow right from my work. I know I have lots of good friends, right. I know that I will still keep in touch with them a lot, a lot, a lot. So I think that's you feel that work is no longer such a dreading thing if you have those connections. You know that people have your back at work.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's lovely and that I can't think of a better note to end the podcast on. And we will have your bio and information about Francis in our show notes. And Francis, I think I'm going to borrow that quote from you that leadership is a path to pursue a better version of you. I love that quote.
Speaker 3:Maybe it's from someone else.
Speaker 1:I don't know. We'll check it. We'll go check it. Okay, we won't assume that we know. Thank you for joining us today. We are very happy to have had you on the program. Thank you, listeners, for joining us today. We hope that you were inspired by this conversation.
Speaker 2:And we invite you to join our community on Patreon See the link below. There you will find more resources to help you on your leadership journey.
Speaker 1:Make sure to join us next time for more conversation about leadership excellence.
